The Heterodox Liberal

Wednesday, January 11, 2006

The Dilemma of the Feminist Male

Lets start off this blog with something really provocative, shall we?

One of the best blogs out there in cyberspace is Hugo Schwyzer's. Hugo, a college professor, regularly takes up the banner of feminist men (a category in which I include myself) and rightly scolds his fellow y-chromosome holders for a whole host of objectifying, oppressive, or otherwise inappropriate behavior and unawareness of male privilege. So far, so good.

I have, however, one note of concern. It is the basic concern that many men raise -- sometimes disingenuously as a way of attacking feminist attempts to equalize the power in many relationships (e.g. workplace sexual harassment), but sometimes sincerely.

The concern is simple: how do single men (and, for that matter, het single women who want men) actually "court" each other under the restrictions he proposes? Hugo appears to be engaged, I'm not sure for how long, or how recently he is familiar with the difficulties of modern dating. And I certainly don't want to excuse noxious behavior (like the aforementioned workplace sexual harassment) on grounds that it's "just showing interest."

However, it seems like some of his comments are a little unbalanced. For example, in this post about older-man, younger-woman relationships, he flatly declares the following: "When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea." He defends this position mainly on the ground that you "need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe."

This seems wrong-headed to me. There are several points of concern.

- What is this "safe?" And why is it inconsistent with romantic interest? I think Hugo is conflating several different kinds of interest here. There's the unsafe kind (leering, street harassment, etc.), and the safe kind (geniune attraction between, one hopes, equals). While a lot of purported sexual interest is predation, it doesn't follow that all sexual interest is predation. While I'm sure it is true that "[t]he first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark -- these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds," I am also sure it is true that many men do not do business with leers, whistles, catcalls, and inappropriate remarks. ("Inappropriate remarks" begs the question anyway.)

- Hugo also seems to conflate institutional power (i.e. dating students) with mere age. Regardless of your position on whether professors should date students or not, the fact that a professor feels it inappropriate to date (or flirt back with) a student has no bearing on whether or not it is inappropriate for older men generally to date or flirt back with younger women.

- Hugo argues that "[y]oung women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren't their fathers or brothers but who aren't prospective lovers, either. They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality. They need to be seen as complete human beings. " The last two sentences of that quote are unquestionably true. However, I fail to see how the first follows, or how specific behavioral demands follow from the first. Isn't it possible to be sexually interested in someone and interested in them because "they bring more to the table than their sexuality?" (Indeed, aren't many healthy relationships based on things like intellectual "chemistry" as well as physical "chemistry?") Isn't it incumbent upon us to incorporate "complete human being" into the set of qualities that make up "prospective lover?" And vice versa -- isn't it the case that "objects of desire" is part of "full human being?" Don't many people -- men and women -- who are not objects of desire (i.e. the unattractive) feel less than full human beings, having an avenue of normal life (sexuality) denied to them?

Moreover, not every man will be attracted to every woman. Even if there were a specific need, in the lives of women, for a specific class of men ("non-attracted older man") there's ample supply. There's married older men (many/most), gay older men, and older men who genuinely aren't interested. By suggesting that men who are interested in a particular woman deprive women of this (alleged) need, and thus implying an underspupply of non-interested men, Hugo implies, basically, that all men are horny freaks who necessarily want to boink every attractive woman that comes around the corner.

Also, even if an older man in question believes Hugo's claims about the need of younger women for uninterested older men, there's an honesty question. Basically, he's advocating pretending to be uninterested when one is not.

And then there's the collective action problem. Suppose I'm an Older Man, sexually interested in a Younger Woman, who might also be interested in me. Suppose also that Younger Woman is not interested in men her own age for the simple reason that they mostly seem to spend their time drinking beer in the frat house. I, having read and agreed with Hugo's post, decline to express any interest in Younger Woman. Then Older Man 2, who has not read Hugo's blog or who is self-interested, "moves in for the kill." Result? Good Older Man is punished (absence of relationship/sex), Bad Older Man is rewarded, and Younger Woman is just as wounded. How is this good?

- That last sub-point leads into the broader claim. For many, relationships -- oh hell, I'll just come right out with it -- sex is scarce. This is where I think Hugo perhaps suffers from some "engaged person privilege." Or perhaps it's "religous person privilege." Either way, I'm not sure that Hugo fully understands the scarcity of sex relative to demand.

Men in particular seem (speaking phenomenologically) to experience a deficit between quantity of desired sex and quantity of achieved sex. Those who lack just one of the many socially-imposed prerequisites to sexual success (appearance, intelligence, [sometimes] class status, various particular personality qualities like "confidence," etc.) can see their sex deficit enter the stratosphere. For women, perhaps the sex deficit in general is lower, but the desireable sex partner deficit is probably just as high (i.e. Younger Woman can get it from the drunk frat boy any time she wants, but she doesn't want it from the drunk frat boy). In light of this fact, is it a good thing to constrain the options of both parties still more? If Younger Woman wants a decent, pro-feminist Older Man, shouldn't she be entitled to date one who is attracted to her? Why should Older Man be forced to artifically constrain his dating pool to exclude Younger Woman? Don't both suffer in the most straightforward economic sense?

Re: the last point, Hugo acknowledges this later and moderates his position -- also correctly recognizing the distinction between "authority figure" and "general older man." It's just plain refusal to maximize utility.

This is a problem I have with several of Hugo's positions. For example, in discussing the nastiness re: Jill versus a webboard full of anonymous losers, he says the following about why feminist men shouldn't pay physical compliments:

But this "be very careful with physical comments and compliments rule" is applicable in the rest of the world, as well. Pro-feminist men must recognize that men constantly use compliments to gain access to women, and that that is a fundamentally destructive dynamic. How many bad pick-up lines start with overzealous praise of a woman's appearance? Men use these lines because as hackneyed as they are, they know sometimes they work. By the time they reach college, most men recognize that a great many women are deeply and profoundly hungry for praise, and by offering that praise, guys will be able to gain an opening. When men praise the beauty of women they barely know, they are employing an old patriarchal strategy that preys upon a serious vulnerability.

To which I say "hold on!" What is this "gain access to women?" The whole notion of "gaining access to women" is actually an anti-feminist idea. Hugo tacitly assumes that the women in question don't want to have access gained to them, that male mating rituals in the human species are fundamentally about manipulating uninterested women into bed. Perhaps in some social categories, that's true. However, modern feminists recognize women as sexual agents too.

With that in mind, we can reframe "paying compliments to gain access to women" as "verbally expressing sexual interest to see if it is reciprocated." Is there something wrong with that? Or are people required to communicate their sexual interest with bizarre codes and ambiguous physical movements and all sorts of other useless crap?

Even if there's an element of vulnerability there, are women so vulnerable to physical compliments that it undermines their free will? Assuming arguendo that a physical compliment triggers some kind of socially conditioned reward sensation in, perhaps, the ventral anterior cingulate cortex, leading the recipient to feel more positively disposed to (attracted to) the giver, how is that different from any other sexual behavior? Isn't that why I take a shower before going out, pay for dinner, and ease off on the garlic? Isn't that why she wears perfume, crosses her legs that way, and laughs at my dumb joke? Isn't sexual behavior about finding the things that one's prospective partner is "vulnerable" (attracted) to, and doing them?

There's also the fairly dramatic anti-sex posts. I really do like Hugo's blog, but sometimes I think he needs to get hit with a Third Wave Cluestick. The post at the last link just buys into the whole "men want sex, women want don't" myth that has been responsible for so much inequality. Read this insightful comment. As Hugo himself rightly said, "real liberation comes in the bold assertion of one's right to pleasure."

And then there's this post, which is also frankly retrograde. Of course serious relationships are an impediment to one's personal growth. If I'm married, and my partner has a good job, I'm less free to take a good job of my own in a different town, or go to graduate school, or whatever. Double that if there's kids. And really, enough with the paternalism already.

(In the interest of fairness, a few posts from Hugo that I unequivocally agree with.)

Here's the bottom-line. I agree with Hugo that our culture encodes a uni-dimensional sexuality on women's bodies. I agree that this is bad, and that we ought to do something about it. However, I am not willing to impose celibacy on myself or others to do it. And so, I address this question to Hugo: How can a Feminist Man Get Laid?

(Inadmissible answer: "God says you shouldn't.")


  • As a feminist woman, I'm relatively unconcerned with the mechanics of courtship. I take issue with the assumption quid pro quo in dating, in which a man's payment for a meal is also assumed to be payment for sex. I'd rather split the check. I don't take issue with being complimented on my appearance as long as it's coming from someone smart enough to realize that there's more to me than my boobs. The area I'm very concerned about is the mechanics of an eventual relationship: will I be stuck, by default, doing most of the emotional and/or physical work in the relationship because I'm a woman? I realize that's a jump ahead of your question, since you're concerned about getting laid, but I just want to get laid, too. And the way we get to that, well...most one-time-only sexual encounters are based on little more than raw sexual attraction. I don't really see anything wrong with that from a feminst perspective.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:00 PM  

  • Hi! I'd like to link into your older man/ younger woman comments. I think the crux of the question is, how young that younger woman is.
    Surely you appreciate that sexual relationships with girls in the early years of teenhod are highly inappropriate (and illegal). Surely Hugo as well agrees that sexual relationships with women in their mid-twenties are (ceteris paribus) appropriate. Surely we can all agree that somewhere in between those two points women will go through a period where they are already sexual beings, but this experience is relatively new, and while it may be appropriate for them to have sexual relationships with men their age, it is questionable whether this is commendable if the men are considerably older.
    Somebody close to me dated (for four years, mind you) a girl who was 17 at the time they met, whereas he was 28 turning 29. The girl was biologically ready, for sure, and he was not her first experience. Yet I doubt if this relationship was in any way commendable, and that's despite him having good intentions.
    People need to go through stages in their personal development, and even though some mature faster than others, some steps just cannot be jumped. This probably applies to sexual development more than anything.
    And why are you worried that Hugo is advocating 'closing off' the under-21s from the pool of people you could consider get laid with? There are plenty of women over 21, you know.

    By Anonymous Anna, at 1:36 PM  

  • Good Older Man is punished (absence of relationship/sex), Bad Older Man is rewarded

    How can a feminist man get laid? Until he stops characterizing sex in terms of reward and punishment, he hasn't got a chance.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:10 PM  

  • Good point, anonymous at 2:10pm.

    I think there's a big difference between 'courting' one particular younger woman when you are single and actually potentially and specifically interested in her as a dating partner/girlfriend, and going through life sexualizing all relationships with any woman you are mildly attracted to - apart from all questions of appropriate age differences, etc.

    By Blogger Tara, at 2:32 PM  

  • Anon2: isn't that how people think and behave, though? It seems to me that many people either explicitly or implicitly act in something resembling economic/instrumental rationality when it comes to dating. If action(a) will raise my probability of getting sex in such a fashion that my expected utility is more than the cost (as expressed not only in money, but in time, labor, integrity, etc.), I do it.

    And what's wrong with that? Sex is a pleasurable experience. Both men and women prefer to have it in sufficient supply than to not have it. It's perfectly amenable to rational utility calculus. (Although one can certainly go way, waaaaayyy too far with that.)

    It makes perfect sense to describe getting sex in response to certain actions as a "reward" and not getting it, or getting less of it, in response to others as a "punishment." It's a fairly trivial proposition that people respond to pleasurable stimuli as a reward (in the operant conditioning sense). It's fairly trivial that deprivation of desired pleasurable stimuli constitutes a punishment. Sex is a pleasurable stimulus...

    By Blogger Iconoclastic Democrat, at 3:13 PM  

  • Anna:
    Yet I doubt if this relationship was in any way commendable, and that's despite him having good intentions.

    Perhaps all this anecdotal evidence says is that the two individuals in question were not compatible, not that all such relationships are inappropriate. (And since when was anyone looking to be "commended" about their relationship? Is it important that outside observers consider a relationship "commendable"?)

    People need to go through stages in their personal development, and even though some mature faster than others, some steps just cannot be jumped. This probably applies to sexual development more than anything.

    I'm not entirely certain what this means, assuming you're referring to one's emotional/mental development with regards to sexuality rather than basic physical/reproductive development. Do you believe there are specific "steps" or "stages" one must go through in order to develop a healthy sexuality? If so, what are they?

    Personally, I don't think that's something that can be generalized. When it is, the generalization tends to focus on "experience" (usually defined by number of partners), which punishes those who aren't interested in casual sex or who for some reason (shyness, appearance, etc) have been less sexually/romantically successful than average. Are these people less mature or less ready for a serious relationship than their more "normal" peers? Maybe sometimes, but I don't think it's fair to say that they always are. (It isn't directly linked to age, either-- the factors above may mean that two people of the same age have drastically different levels of experience, or that two people of different ages may be more or less on the same level.)

    And why are you worried that Hugo is advocating 'closing off' the under-21s from the pool of people you could consider get laid with? There are plenty of women over 21, you know.

    Because, as he said, these limitations benefit no one. The older men don't benefit from missing out on potential relationships, and neither do the younger women (unless one is prepared to argue that it's invalid for them to want relationships with older men because they don't know what's best for them). It seems exceedingly silly to claim that because a relationship between two legal adults might not turn out to be healthy and the people involved might be incompatible and someone might get hurt, that it shouldn't even be attempted-- those possibilities exist in every relationship.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:15 PM  

  • unless one is prepared to argue that it's invalid for them to want relationships with older men because they don't know what's best for them

    But this is what the original post argues! As I said on Hugo's blog:

    I notice he also characterized the young woman in the example as helpless to reject Bad Older Man's advances and unable to notice his Badness - there's his real estimation of young women's sexual autonomy and decision-making skills.

    Iconoclastic democrat:

    It makes perfect sense to describe getting sex in response to certain actions as a "reward" and not getting it, or getting less of it, in response to others as a "punishment."

    I take it you also think of not getting a winning lottery ticket, a free cruise, or a pony as a "punishment," then? No one is any more entitled to sex than to any of those things. And of course, sex isn't a prize you win by "doing certain actions," unless you include being attractive and pleasant as actions.

    Punishment is what people in positions of authority do to subordinates; most commonly, it's what parents do to children or what governments do to criminals. Punishment/reward is used as a tool of behavior modification. This is why it is creepy when applied to women who do or don't have sex with people. I hope that's clear.

    Sex is not something somebody gives you. It's something two (or more) people do together. It's not a thing at all. Still less is it a favor or a gift for which one should be grateful (if it's a reward, should one say "thank you" after they're done? Because that's not going to go over well with feminist women, either.)

    In short, when you decide that a woman (or a man, but this always comes up in relation to women) has sex with you to reward or punish, you effectively deny that her sexual desires have anything to do with her decisions to have sex. You have sex because you're aroused and you like somebody, not as a substitute for giving him a cookie or a pat on the head.

    If you don't actually mean that reward/punishment factors into the woman's decisions, but rather that it's just about your perceptions, well - ignoring your desired partner's motivations to focus solely on your own perceptions is not a great getting-laid strategy, either.

    (I was the 2:10 anonymous; sorry for the unsigned post.)

    By Anonymous sophonisba, at 4:07 PM  

  • Anonymous wrote: How can a feminist man get laid? Until he stops characterizing sex in terms of reward and punishment, he hasn't got a chance. By Anonymous, at 2:10 PM

    Anon, it was obvious to me that HL was talking about a specific way of looking at 'the social' -- I'd call it rational choice, though maybe HL doesn't. That's what he meant by the "collective action" problem.

    I don't think he sees sex and relationships as rewards/punishments in the same belittling way we tend to see it in ordinary, popular discourse.

    Anyway, have no answers for you HL except to say that, like you, Hugo often says all the right things, but as a woman and a feminist, I find it extraordinarily patronizing stuff.

    You're right about institutional power. My mother, 10 years older, dated her prof when she went back to college. In fact, he became my step dad. The screwed while she was taking his class -- this was back in the days when you could get away with that sort of thing.

    I was quite shocked when my mother confessed that they'd been together while she was taking his courses. Jeez mom, couldn't he have gotten someone else to grade your work or something? (I know he could, as an academic at the time, I knew this was possible.)

    IOW, I think that there was plenty of room for abuse in that situation, which is why I never dated my students, even though there were overtures. It just brought complexities into their lives and mine that none of us needed.

    My feeling is this: if you need to run around assigning such aribtrary values ("over age 27 or 28, say" [to paraphrse]) then your thinking is pretty muddied.

    I doubt women have some special need for non-sexually interested, non-relative older men in their lives for any particular reason.

    If he wants to make prohibitions or suggest them as guides for behavior, then do so, but don't make up some claims about what women ostensibly need. Perhaps he'd do better to investigate how such behavior might harm these older men or something. I dunno, but that passage saddened me.

    Sorry if this sounds angry, but there really is nothing worse than being patronized by a supposedly feminist man.

    By Anonymous Bitch | Lab, at 5:23 PM  

  • A radical cultural feminist man can have a relationship with a radical cultural feminist woman after they have read MacKinnon's rape=sex=rape article, imho.

    After my partner and I read MacKinnon’s article on sex=rape=sex we discussed how we could still be pro-sex.

    This is definitely a hard question especially since MacKinnon leads little room for even two feminists to have consensual, non-dominating sex...we came out of our MacKinnon induced coma with what we call "sweet sex". SS is non-dominating, non-power over, non-objectifying sex. At least our attempt anyways...who knows for certain since I'm a man which means I have been socialized from birth..

    Trying really hard to be and to create change as a white, anti-racist, man, feminist.

    By Anonymous Eric, at 6:48 PM  

  • Eric, I'm unfamiliar with the MacKinnon article you reference and I couldn't find it in a biblio. What's the full title?


    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:39 AM  

  • Bitch | Lab: I was indeed trying to invoke rational choice terminology (with a little bit of behavioral psych thrown in). Perhaps that was less clear than I intended (too much hanging around with academics). Thank you.

    By Blogger Iconoclastic Democrat, at 8:55 AM  

  • I read this site and realise how poor my vocabulary is, but its an interesting subject very close to my heart so I contribute aware that I may be throwing a "swine before pearls".

    We do well to remember that we must avoid arrogance and decadence.

    Arrogance; when we decide what is good for others, why they are driven in a particular direction and what what they may or may not feel. To imply that a grown woman may not have her own agenda, at all times and be right and capable of engineering a solution to her desires is more than sexist, it is ridiculous.

    Decadence; what we feel about this is almost irrelavent to our DNA and it's requirement to have a strict pecking order amongst human emotions as to which will have the greatest motivation of our actions. We are not so clever that we have know taken over the reins on our existence. Much of what we think still concerns angels and pins.

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